Sitaram Yechury, CPI-M politburo member and Rajya Sabha MP, talks about the Left parties support to the UPA Government and issues like FDI, Budget, disinvestment and EPF interest rate in an interview with Karan Thapar on Devil's Advocate.
Karan Thapar: Hello and welcome to Devil's Advocate. The Left parties are the crutch the Government rests upon.
Without its support, the UPA Government simply won't exist. And yet differences between the two are emerging and are in danger of proliferation. So, where is the relationship? That's the key question that I shall put today to CPI-M politburo member and Rajya Sabha MP Sitaram Yechury.
Mr Yechury, there is a widespread impression that there are serious differences between the Left parties as a whole and the government on a range of subjects. For instance, you clashed over the USA, over Iran, over airports, over FDI, the Budget, PSU disinvestment, even EPF interest rate. Is the distance between the Left parties and the government growing?
Sitaram Yechury:Well, there are certain areas where we think the decisions of the government are not in consonance with what we would consider to be the interest of the country and the people.
Karan Thapar:But is this distance growing? Because it seems to be going further and further apart.
Sitaram Yechury:Definitely. There is a certain growth in distance let's say in certain areas. That is in the question of India's foreign policy. There has been what we think a serious departure from what has been committed by the government, by the UPA in the National Common Minimum Programme.
Karan Thapar:And where else is the growth?
Sitaram Yechury:Well, elsewhere the growth is there on issues which are not contained in the CMP but which are decisions that are being taken.
Karan Thapar:So, in a nutshell, between 2004 when the government came into being and now, roughly 21 months later, the differences between the Left parties and the government have increased.
Sitaram Yechury: But I don't think it is unnatural.
Karan Thapar: No, that's not.
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Sitaram Yechury: The reason why I am saying this because it should not be measured in terms of an increase or decrease. There will be issues on which there will be conformity and there will be issues on which there will be dispute.
Karan Thapar:Quite right. But you did just say that in the last 21 months, on several issues the difference, the distance has increased.
Sitaram Yechury:Yeah. The difference has emerged. More than increased, the differences have emerged which were not there in 2004.
Karan Thapar:Since January 1 this year, the CPM politburo and the Left parties as a whole issued 25 statements either disagreeing with or seriously criticising government decisions. In fact in one instance, you issued four statements on one subject in just one week. Is that a sign that the tolerance of the Left is shrinking?
Sitaram Yechury:I won't quite question your numbers. I am sure you have done your homework. It is a sign definitely of the Left parties wanting the government to adhere to not what we want the government to do. It's not the Left agenda. We want them to adhere to the Common Minimum Programme, to what they themselves have committed.
Karan Thapar:Quite right. And you had to take actually to issuing formal protest statements. That's a sign that in fact the adherence is not there.
Sitaram Yechury:Yes, where we think the adherence is on the decline, or let's say not as committed as it ought to be, yes we are expressing our difference.
Karan Thapar:And you are expressing it toughly and sometimes very publicly.
Sitaram Yechury:I believe that is an honest and candid way to go about it.
Karan Thapar:The problem is that you are being ignored. No matter what the subject, the Left parties have their say but the government ends up having its way.
Sitaram Yechury:I don't think so, not at all.
Karan Thapar:Don't you? Let me quote to you Jyoti Basu. "We are protesting against the decision, but they are not heeding our objections."
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Sitaram Yechury: Yes, on certain issues. But on many issues, they have had to accept our position. They have has to, in fact, go back on their words. Remember the Navratna disinvestment.
Karan Thapar:Let me quote A B Bardhan. On 17th of February, he said: "We write to them, we talk to them. We put pressure. We may bark at any length. But nowadays, they don't understand all this. They implement their own policies. They do what they want."
Sitaram Yechury:Listen Mr Thapar. All these statements have been made definitely in terms of one specific issue. Now, you can't take them out and generalise them for overall reaction. And secondly and more importantly, yes there have been many issues on which because of our pressure, they have backtracked.
Karan Thapar:Just two, on which they have backtracked. On BHEL and food subsidy, that's it.
Sitaram Yechury:No. And petroleum price hike.
Karan Thapar:Let's take the issues. You say this is all connected with one issue. Let's then look at a range of issues. Jyoti Basu calls George Bush a terrorist. Brinda Karat calls him a killer. Prakash Karat says he should be treated as a war criminal. What does the PM do? He breaks the protocol and goes to the airport to receive him and calls him a honoured guest. Isn't it a slap on your face?
Sitaram Yechury:Not at all. And don't say that he broke the protocol only for George Bush. He went to receive the Saudi king also.
Karan Thapar:Not a man that you have seen as a killer, not a man that you want treated as a war criminal. It's that connection that I am talking about.
Sitaram Yechury:Nobody really made out the fact that he also went to receive the Saudi King.
Karan Thapar:Except for the fact that he had no objection there. Here, you have called George Bush a killer, a terrorist.
Sitaram Yechury:We have no objection here as well. It's his style of functioning. It's up to him.
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Karan Thapar:All right. Let's come to a substantial issue in that case. In June 2005, you had serious objections with the Indo-US defence agreement. What did the PM do? One month later, he took one step further and concluded a global democracy initiative. In July 2005, you had serious reservation with the nuclear understanding achieved in Washington. Last week, what did the PM do? He formalises it into a deal. It seems no matter what your objection is, the PM ignores them.
Sitaram Yechury:On this score, yes. And we are publicly on record and continue to -- even inside Parliament and outside -- oppose it.
Karan Thapar:But your opposition doesn't amount to anything.
Sitaram Yechury:What do you mean anything? What do you think the nuclear deal was all about? Please understand that the nuclear won't have been the way it was but for the pressure of the Left and the scientific community.
Karan Thapar:That's what you say.
Sitaram Yechury:That's the fact. That's the truth. Everybody has got to accept it.
Karan Thapar:That's not the fact. The truth is -- I will prove it to you -- at 11 am as on March 1, Sitaram Yechury said and I quote: "If the UPA government succumbs to US pressure on the nuclear deal, they will have to face the consequences."
Sitaram Yechury: You are right.
Karan Thapar: Two hours later, the PM called your bluff, signed the deal and said he had made history.
Sitaram Yechury:No, I am sorry. What was the deal he signed on? What did I say? "If the UPA Government does not keep the apprehensions that we have raised, it will be in serious trouble. All the apprehensions have been met because of the pressure.
Karan Thapar:Which is why two hours after your threatening of consequences, he signed the deal. Either you were ignorant or the PM called your bluff.
Sitaram Yechury:No, nothing, neither. The PM accepted our concerns and that is the fact. The PM accepted it and that's what you have to accept as well.
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Karan Thapar:All right. I am glad that you have interpreted it as acceptance. Let's come to another example. In September, you wrote, you said to the PM that he should not vote against Iran at the IAEA. What did he do? He voted against Iran.
Sitaram Yechury:No, at that time he managed not to have a vote.
Karan Thapar:In September, there was a vote and India voted against Iran. In February, you wrote to the PM, saying please don't vote against Iran a second time. What did he do? He voted against Iran. As a result, this week Iran has been referred to US Security Council, one outcome you wanted to avoid at all cost.
Sitaram Yechury: Yes. We are absolutely critical. We think the government played along with the US interest. And this is wrong for the interest of the country. And yes this is going to be discussed in Parliament. We are going to take it up.
Karan Thapar:On Friday, the day we are recording this interview, you issued another press statement. This makes it statement No. 16. And what did you say? You said, "The government has capitulated to US pressure. This is against our vital interest. Our independent foreign policy has been compromised." You know what the PM is going to do? He is going to smile, roll up your statement and throw it in the dustbin.
Sitaram Yechury:Thank you for telling me what he will do. You seem to be knowing better that than I do.
Karan Thapar: But you are not changing government's position.
Sitaram Yechury:But that doesn't detract a word from what we have said, or our position.
Karan Thapar:But that is the problem.
Sitaram Yechury:What's the problem in it?
Karan Thapar:You are complaining. You are publicly issuing statements, criticising. And what does the government do? It pays no attention whatsoever.
Sitaram Yechury:So. We will continue to put the pressure. If they don't accept, then that's up to them.
Karan Thapar:So you are being taken for a ride. You are being used?
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Sitaram Yechury:No, I am sorry. The consequence they will have to bear. And what the consequences are, they know very well. We know very well. The country knows very well.
Karan Thapar:I am very keen to take up this implicit threat that you have just thrown out.
Sitaram Yechury:What is implicit in it? There is nothing explicit and implicit in it. It is very clear.
Karan Thapar:But for audience's sake, let's talk about the extent to which the differences between the government and the Left are glaring. Let me give you an example. The announced that the interest rate on EPF would be cut to 8.5 per cent. Your leader in the Lok Sabha said that there is no question of accepting this at any cost. Your leader in the Rajya Sabha said this is totally unacceptable. It has to be reversed. Three months have passed. It has not been reversed. The parties haven eaten crow.
Sitaram Yechury:Well, I am not going to oblige you if you want me to withdraw my support and make this government fall. If that is your agenda, no I am not going to oblige you.
Karan Thapar:No, I am not asking you to accept something else.
Sitaram Yechury:Yes, I am telling you to the extent possible. To the last extent possible, we will continue to put our pressure to get things done in the interest of the people.
Karan Thapar:But this is what I am saying. This so-called last possible extent actually means nothing.
Sitaram Yechury:You are only seeing one side of the picture. The initial proposal of the government was to increase the price of petrol by Rs 11, the price of diesel by Rs 10, the price of kerosene by Rs 5 and the price of a gas cylinder by Rs 100.
Karan Thapar:So, you scored a little victory over petroleum prices six to eight months ago.
Sitaram Yechury:No, please remember. And don't be so condescending. It's not a little victory. There are crore of people, who have benefited out of that.
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Karan Thapar:You have lost out on Delhi and Mumbai airport privatisation. You lost out on FDI in retail. You tried to put up pressure on Budget, you lost out on that.
Sitaram Yechury:Precisely. There are all these issues on which we will put pressure and try and extract the maximum.
Karan Thapar: Let me give you an example to which this government really doesn't care about the Left. FDI in retail is a specific issue on which your sister party CPI has a manifesto where they oppose it completely, categorically. What does the government do? It first gives permission for FDI in single-brand retail and now the finance minister has said in interviews that FDI in retail across the board in metros can be possible within the next two-three years.
Sitaram Yechury:The Finance Minister has been saying for the last two years that he is going to increase FDI in insurance. He has said a lot of things. Let us see.
Karan Thapar:He says he is bringing a bill in this session of parliament.
Sitaram Yechury:He said in the last two Budgets before presenting that he is going to bring in a bill to increase the FDI in insurance. Has that happened?
Karan Thapar: He has confirmed in interviews that the bill will be tabled in this session of the House.
Sitaram Yechury:We react to the government on the basis of its policies, no on the basis of its statements and neither on the basis of your interpretation of the statements.
Karan Thapar:Look at the agenda that they have set themselves for the next six months. FDI in mining, increasing FDI in insurance, deregulating banking, reforming pension, disinvesting PSU. They are even talking in newspapers of hire and fire in textiles. None of them you like, but you are not putting them off.
Sitaram Yechury: You are telling me of this agenda. Neither the government no the ministers concerned. None of them has given us this agenda.
Karan Thapar: Forgive me, they have given interviews. Mr Chidambaram has talked about this repeatedly.
Sitaram Yechury: Interview, yes. I have told you about the interviews. I have told you what have appeared in the interviews in the last two years, but didn't happen. We will see what are the policies.
Karan Thapar:This is where you are wrong. On 19th of January in Kolkata, speaking about the disinvestment of PSUs, which was still at that point a possibility, Mr Prakash Karat, your general secretary, said: "The sale of shares in PSUs to garner a few thousand crore is bad policy, bad economics and bad politics. We can't accept this." Four weeks later, the government is poised to disinvest shares in PFC, in the NMDC.
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Sitaram Yechury:It doesn't happen, I am sorry. Because you tell me so, the government has not told me.
Karan Thapar: Mr Chidambaram has told the country in interviews.
Sitaram Yechury:It is not policy.
Karan Thapar:Are you saying what he said in interviews in baloney?
Sitaram Yechury:No, I am saying we will react only to policy changes. When the policy change is proposed concretely, it will be in terms of policy decisions, then it will be evaluated. And I am not going to react to all sorts of interviews that come up.
Karan Thapar:You accused the government of a scam when it came to privatisation of Delhi and Mumbai airports. You and politburo said that they were condemning the government for the brazen policy of privatisation of strategic sector.
Sitaram Yechury:Definitely, we do.
Karan Thapar:Yet, they went ahead with it.
Sitaram Yechury:No. The matter what we have raised -- that's why I am not going to go to the details, the question of the scam that you are pointing at -- is sub-judice now. It is there in the court. And you will see what will happen. You will see the government will have to pay for the consequences.
Karan Thapar: You know the truth? In every field that we have discussed -- and I have deliberately gone through a range so that the audience can understand that it is not just an issue or two -- in every field, you are not just being ignored, you are being used.
Sitaram Yechury: No. On the contrary, it was the government that had to succumb to the pressure.
Karan Thapar:What succumbing did they do?
Sitaram Yechury:I will tell you. Tell me one government in independent India that took the responsibility for rural employment guarantee?
Karan Thapar:The rural employment guarantee is widely passed because of pressure of Sonia Gandhi, not because of the Left parties.
Sitaram Yechury:Everybody knows it's because of the Left parties these things are being done -- whether it agricultural credit growth, whether public investment in agriculture is increasing. To the person at the ground level, these are not matters on the basis of which he is evaluating. He is seeing.
Karan Thapar:So you hope.
Sitaram Yechury:No. You will see in the electoral results. They don't come in TV interviews. They come out in the support in the ground level.
Karan Thapar:The Left parties provide the support without which the government can't exist. Yet the government uses that support to do all the things you are vehemently opposed to.
Sitaram Yechury:Yes, they are doing many things that we are opposed to. On many things, they are actually having to accept out pressure and do it in the interest of the country.
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Karan Thapar:You know, two years ago you told me in a different interview that the Left will be the watchdog of the government. I will put it to you that the government treats you like a stray dog.
Sitaram Yechury: No, no. We continue to be, we shall be and we are the watchdog. They know it jolly well.
Karan Thapar:Maybe you are not having enough of watching eye. Because while you watch the government is running away with the bones.
Sitaram Yechury:No. It is not. And it cannot. It also knows. And on all these issues on which these pressures are being put, they are being implemented. The problem is deliberately you are not picking up on those issues.
Karan Thapar:Few and far between. BHEL, petrol price and food subsidy, the rest Sonia Gandhi take you for a ride, you know?
Sitaram Yechury:Thank you. You can be her advocate. I have no complaints. Please be Sonia Gandhi's advocate. But the point is that educational institutions coming under social control -- it was out proposal. The Constitution has to be amended. It has been amended. Apart from the Rural Employment Guarantee Act, the proposal that has come on the trial rights - rights of the tribals on the forest land. The bill has now been drafted. It's now under consideration. It will come.
Karan Thapar:All of these are issued that the National Advisory Council advised the government to follow.
Sitaram Yechury:Come on Mr Thapar. All these things are listed on the CMP.
Karan Thapar:In which case, you can't claim credit at all. That is government's own thinking.
Sitaram Yechury:Why. It is listed because of us. Don't be so ignorant. In the drafting of the CMP, we have a major role to play. And all these are issued that we had asked the government to include and they were included and now they are being implemented.
Karan Thapar:Mr Yechury, you have accepted that the distance between the government and the Left is growing. You have accepted that in many areas, differences didn't exist, they have emerged. You have accepted that in fact there are issues that are important and of concern to you. How long then will you continue to support a government that effectively kicks you in the teeth.
Sitaram Yechury:It does not. If it does, they know that they are not going to be in the government. It doesn't matter to us.
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Karan Thapar:Can you explain what do you mean when you say if it continues, they can't be in government.
Sitaram Yechury:If they continue in this sort of manner. And on many issues, as I have told you, deliberately -- ok that must be your line of argument and thinking otherwise it won't sell -- you picked up only those issues where there are differences and not those issues that they had to implement because of Left pressure.
Karan Thapar:Let me pick up because the audience is interested in what did you mean by the sentence in this manner. Last week, Prakash Karat sounded as if he has come very close to the end of his tenor when he said "be prepared to face the consequence if you are going to ignore our voices on specific policy issues." What consequences did he has in mind?
Sitaram Yechury: Now, you ask him.
Karan Thapar:But you must know.
Sitaram Yechury:Yes, I will tell you. You said yourself -- what is the great thing about asking this. The point is this government is surviving because of our support. What else can be the consequence? And that is what the government also knows.
Karan Thapar:But spell it out. Because some people may be ignorant.
Sitaram Yechury:No, they are not. All of them know and everybody knows what are the consequences.
Karan Thapar:Are you suggesting that the consequence is that if the government goes too far, you will withdraw support?
Sitaram Yechury:That has only been the case. From Day One, our only Lakshman Rekha for the government was and is the Common Minimum Programme. We are saying you cross that at your peril.
Karan Thapar: One moment. On two critical issues, relationships with the US and specifically Iran nuclear issue, you have said that they have, in fact, breached the CMP.
Sitaram Yechury:Yes, on the same issue. That is the issue of our independent foreign policy.
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Karan Thapar:Two examples of breaches of CMP. Are you close to withdrawing support?
Sitaram Yechury:No, on one issue, one violation. We will discuss, we will evaluate. Our pressure is on the government now is to amend on the nuclear thing. Please remember, on the nuclear issue our critique is not that the government did not address our apprehensions. Our critique is abusing the nuclear deal, America will put pressure on which the government should not succumb.
Karan Thapar: But you have already accused them of succumbing. you have already accused them of capitulating.
Sitaram Yechury:On Iran, yes we have accused them. We will continue to and we are doing it.
Karan Thapar: When a government capitulates and succumbs and gives up the independence pf foreign policy, what will you do?
Sitaram Yechury: Like I said earlier, I am not going to oblige you by bringing down the government.
Karan Thapar: But what will you do?
Sitaram Yechury:No, we will continue to oppose it. We will continue to put pressure and we will continue to try and reverse it.
Karan Thapar:OK, we see you dilemma there. Than you very much. You have stated it to me. On one hand, you say that you aren't going to oblige us by bringing down the government. On the other hand you say you continue to put pressure and you will continue to oppose it.
Sitaram Yechury: And reverse it. You deliberately didn't refer to my last point.
Karan Thapar: You are not doing much reversing.
Sitaram Yechury:I will do. Not at you bidding.
Karan Thapar:What do you mean you will do? You have not succeeded yet.
Sitaram Yechury:I am sorry. I will do what I think I need to do at my bidding, not at your's. Not at anybody else's.
Karan Thapar:The problem is those are grand brave words. Hollow assurances of faith. You lack the courage to withdraw support. If you had it, the government would heed your line. You don't have the courage of it.
Sitaram Yechury:Thank you. Neither are you in the government, nor are you in the opposition. Neither are you following very carefully what all are happening and why these changes are happening. Don't bring in these questions and try to say that you are not bold enough.
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Karan Thapar:I will tell you why. Because you are full of sound and fury but it signifies nothing.
Sitaram Yechury:So you think.
Karan Thapar:Your anger comes in interviews to people like me, but to the government you smile.
Sitaram Yechury:So you think. I have given you a list of things, which no government in independent India has ever done.
Karan Thapar: I will give you a list of things on which the government has defied and you can't do anything.
Sitaram Yechury:So what? I am getting a lot of things done for the people with this and at the same time I am continuing putting my pressure on make the government reverse.
Karan Thapar:Look at the contradiction you are in.
Sitaram Yechury:I am not in any contradiction, My Thapar. However much you would like to see a fictitious or a fabricated contradiction, it doesn't exist.
Karan Thapar:The contradiction is made by your statements.
Sitaram Yechury:No. We from Day One have been saying that our support to this government exists on the basis of an understanding of keeping the communal forces away.
Karan Thapar:And while they breach it, what do you do? You continues to support the government.
Sitaram Yechury:Be patient. And then we said that the programme that they will have to follow is the National Common Minimum Programme.
Karan Thapar:But then they don't.
Sitaram Yechury:But on many of the things that I have mentioned to you, they have
Karan Thapar:But many of the things are against it.
Sitaram Yechury:Yes. On those things our pressure will continue in order to make the government reverse it.
Karan Thapar: But your pressures are achieving nothing. They are not reversing anything.
Sitaram Yechury:So you think. That is the problem. I have given you the list of things. On rural employment, on tribal land issue, on bringing educational institutions under social control.
Karan Thapar:And I am giving you an opposite list -- airport privatisation, FDI in retail, the Iran issue, relationship with the US.
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Sitaram Yechury:The Iran issue, the relationship with US all in the gamut of foreign issues which we have opposed. We will continue to oppose.
Karan Thapar:Airport privatisation is not foreign policy, FDI in retail is not foreign policy, disinvestment is not foreign policy.
Sitaram Yechury:I am sorry. You are barking around the same tree going round and round. And achieving nothing. Because the point is in FDI in retail, they wanted to completely open up. They have not been able to.
Karan Thapar:So your great achievement is that you have reduced them to a small opening from a big opening?
Sitaram Yechury:You don't have to be very sarcastic about it, Mr Thapar. Please don't be sarcastic about it.
Karan Thapar:It's the CPI manifesto that has been breached.
Sitaram Yechury:So ask them.
Karan Thapar:So much for Left unity. You have just disowned them.
Sitaram Yechury:Thank you for your concern. I didn't know that you are so concerned about Left unity. But as far as I am telling you, there are a number of issues on which the government had to take number of steps, which no other government has taken. And this is happening because of Left support.
Karan Thapar: Me Yechury, can I put something to you? I said the problem is that you lack the courage to pull the rag from under the government. The truth is you are so scared that the BJP will come back to power, you are keeping in office the UPA government that uses you, abuses you and sometimes kicks you on the teeth.
Sitaram Yechury:No, now that you have had your say. I go by the feedback and evaluate. I get from the Indian people and not from somebody else who must have other agenda to follow.
Karan Thapar:Indian people have a private line to speak to Sitaram Yechury?
Sitaram Yechury:They have public lines. Because we go and interact with them straight. Because that is where we have to answer. And the biggest acid test is going to come in Bengal and Kerala. You just watch.
Karan Thapar:That's what you hope.
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Sitaram Yechury: What do you mean hope. That is going to be the reality.
Karan Thapar:I put it to you. If it is not the fear of the BJP, then it is the fear of an election where you know you won't win so many seats. And you want to enjoy the 60-odd that you have as long as you can.
Sitaram Yechury:What is the fear you are talking of.
Karan Thapar:The fear of losing those seats and not coming back.
Sitaram Yechury:It's not deal-making in politics, my dear. That's not why we are there. Others may be or you may be used to do that. We are here because we firmly believe communal politics at the helm of affairs of the country is not in the interest of India or its people. So, it's not a fear of that. It's not a fear for something.
Karan Thapar:Let me quote what Kipling once said: "Power without responsibility is a harlot's prerogative." I put it to you. Today you have responsibility without power.
Sitaram Yechury: That's good.
Karan Thapar:You have the responsibility for keeping the government in office. They are abusing you. There is nothing you can do about it.
Sitaram Yechury:There is something we can do about it when we think, we decide.
Karan Thapar:These are excuses to cover up for your weakness.
Sitaram Yechury:They are not excuses. I have to repeat it again. I am not going to oblige you. I will decide. It is after all my support that the government is on. So we will decide when it's not good in the interest of the country.
Karan Thapar:There is a very good chance when you face the electorate in Kerala and West Bengal in two months' time. they are going to turn around and say to you, you promised something you do something else. And you are taken for a ride by the government at the Centre.
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Sitaram Yechury: I will take up this challenge. Let's meet two months later and I will make you eat your words when we come back victorious in both the states. And then yes on this very programme let's meet after this.
Karan Thapar:Except for the fact that if you don't come back victorious as you like to be, you are going to be tide to the apron strings of the UPA indefinitely.
Sitaram Yechury:There can't be as victorious as we want to be. Either there is victory or defeat. I mean you can't have a girl half-pregnant. You are either pregnant or you are not. If we win, we are going to win. And I am saying we are going to win. Very simple.
Karan Thapar:In politics, what matter is how you win and you can still do badly and you know that.
Sitaram Yechury:But what I was talking to you is victory in the two states.
Karan Thapar:And then you will stand up for your rights?
Sitaram Yechury:What? We are already standing up for our rights and we will win because we are standing up for our rights.
Karan Thapar:So in fact, the government should be very scared because if you win you might actually chose to pull the rag. Because then you will have the confidence.
Sitaram Yechury:We will win these states because we are standing for our rights.
Karan Thapar:Thank you Mr Yechury. It's a pleasure talking to you on Devil's Advocate.
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