Union home minister Amit Shah in an exclusive interview with Rahul Joshi, Group Editor-in-Chief, Network18, has said the biggest achievement of the BJP under the Yogi Adityanath government in Uttar Pradesh is that the criminalisation of politics and politicisation of administration, which had earlier existed, have been replaced with the politics of performance. “The one who performs will be elected by the public,” Shah said.
On the recent hijab controversy, which started in Karnataka, the home minister said it was his “personal belief” that dress code should be followed in schools irrespective of religion. He also said the judgment is awaited, and whatever the court decides will be accepted by him, and should be welcomed by the people across all sections of society.
Translated and edited excerpts:
There are very few politicians who understand Uttar Pradesh as well as you. BJP won 2014, 2017 elections because of your groundwork in UP. This time you have said that we will win 300 seats. Now that three phases of election on 172 seats has passed, what is your assessment?
Three phases have gone by, others remain. I have carried out Jan Vishwas Yatras and Vijay Sankalp Yatras in every district of UP. I have done rallies in every district of the state. In Uttar Pradesh, the BJP will win with a full majority. Under the leadership of Yogi Adityanath, the BJP has been successful in winning the hearts of the people. Support and love for the Prime Minister is much higher today than it was in December 2013. This the feeling on the ground. I know that the BJP will win with a majority in these elections. We will seal the election by hitting a boundary.
If you look at surveys, the BJP is getting 230-260 seats in this election. In 2017, the prediction was 238 seats, we won 325 seats. Perception is an important aspect in a survey, because people link their credibility with the surveys. Also, what the public tells the person who is doing the survey may not even be true. There are many contradictions.
Home Minister, you have done a lot of rallies in this election. What are the big issues with which you have gone to the public?
There are four big issues with which the people of UP have supported and strengthened us more than in the previous three elections. First is law and order. Second, ‘gareeb kalyan’. Third has been development – including access to drinking water and electricity. The fourth issue is the way we have improved the administration of Uttar Pradesh. These are the main issues and each one is very important. SP and BSP governments that worked on caste lines and dynasty never listened to the voice of the people. One government came… worked for one caste, another government worked for another caste. People had lost hope of ever getting justice. People had resigned themselves to this. But after the change came with Modi ji in 2014, people started seeing hope in us and we have lived up to it.
So one of the main issues is law and order?
I have travelled by road to every district and block in UP, from May 2013 to date. Besides some blocks of Sonbhadra, I have gone to every block. I can tell you that getting an FIR registered in UP was a big deal at one time. When the SP came to power, people of one community thought they had been given the power to do as they pleased. In West UP, buffaloes were taken from people’s homes and the farmers couldn’t do anything. I have actually seen that situation. Many people shifted from Meerut to Delhi so that their children could study. People were migrating from Meerut. Gangsters used to capture lands of residents worth crores.
After Yogi ji came into power, dacoity came down 72%. Loot came down 62%. Kidnapping came down 39%. Rape has come down 50%. This is a very important issue in Uttar Pradesh. This is the only time that Azam Khan, Atiq Ansari and Mukhtar Ansari are in jail. The people of Uttar Pradesh couldn’t imagine at one time that people who used to harass them would be in jail. Today, people live in peace. There is no ‘bahubali’ and mafia in any district, something that was a permanent feature earlier. Property worth Rs 200 crore that had been grabbed by gangsters has now been confiscated from them. This is a huge achievement and people are acknowledging our work. In Kanpur, I have seen girls out on the roads on scooties in the middle of the night, and I’m so happy for them. I saw this for myself from my hotel window. This is a huge achievement and people are acknowledging our work. And it is translating into votes.
The law and order issue is important. And now PM Modi has also spoken on terrorism. He spoke in Hardoi on the Ahmedabad blast case in which 38 accused have been sentenced to death. He said these terrorists were freed from jail during the SP regime.
Eleven such instances took place during the SP and BSP eras, when Unlawful Activities (Prevention) Act (UAPA) and Prevention of Terrorism Act (POTA) cases were withdrawn. What do SP and BSP have to say about security in the country? They will have to answer the public. After withdrawing UAPA and POTA who are they helping? And why? For their vote banks? Do other people do not have the right to vote? Those who are the victims don’t have a vote? This is the feeling in the whole of Uttar Pradesh.
There are many such instances of this during Congress regimes too all over the country. Because Narendra Modi was Chief Minister (of Gujarat) at the time, this case could be resolved. There are many blast cases you can analyse. In very few, people have got justice or a judgment has even come. Police worked efficiently and came out with evidence that convinced the court. The court also appreciated the evidence it received and passed judgment. The behaviour of SP, BSP and other parties is clearly visible.
When you talk about appeasement, you are talking about Muslims and Yadavs. Yogi Adityanath has said this election is about 80-20. So do you see this election as Muslims Vs Hindus?
I don’t think this election is about Muslims or Yadavs or Hindus. Yogi ji may have spoken about vote percentages but not about Muslims Vs Hindus.
Don’t you think that the election is being polarized?
Yes, polarisation is happening. The poor and farmers are being polarised. Many farmers are getting money from the Kisan Kalyan Nidhi Yojana. I can see ‘polarisation’ clearly.
So you don’t see Hindu-Muslim polarisation?
See, the voting pattern can’t be termed polarization. We have left no stone unturned. We have extended benefits to every section of society, irrespective of caste and religion. Whoever was eligible has received benefits. Under the PM’s initiative, we have given gas to 1.66 crore women in UP. 2.62 lakh families did not have proper toilets. Can you imagine that? Today, women don’t have to defecate in the open and they are happy. 40 lakh women have benefitted from the Pradhan Mantri Matru Vandana Yojana. In 1.41 crore houses there was no bulb or electricity for the last 70 years. Electricity has now reached every single village in UP, thanks to PM Modi. About 2.70 crore LED bulbs were distributed. 15 crore people in UP are getting free rations under the Gareeb Kalyan Anna Yojana. To this, Yogi ji added dal, edible oil and salt for the poor. Under this government, 42 lakh people have received homes.
In our Sankalp Patra, we have said there will be no one in UP without a home by 2024. 8.80 lakh street vendors in UP have got loans under the Swarn Nidhi Yojana. Schemes made by Modi ji for the poor were for every man in the entire country. Yogi ji has enabled these schemes to reach the poor man in every part of UP.
You were telling me that the kind of work Yogi Adityanath has done in Uttar Pradesh is much better than other states?
It’s very good.
I want to ask you a question related to this; I had asked Yogi Adityanath the same question – the party that talks of ‘sabka sath sabka vikaas’, it’s PM Modi’s anthem, yours and CM Yogi’s too – when it comes to distribution of tickets, why does it not give tickets to Muslims? What is the Bharatiya Janata Party’s relationship with Muslims?
When it comes to BJP’s relationship with Muslims, it’s the same relation the government has with an Indian citizen and the responsible member of the political group (Rajnaitik Dal). But we also have to see who gives votes in elections.
So, you are saying that this is a political need?
It’s not a need. It’s political conduct.
So it’s necessary to win elections, which is why it’s done?
Absolutely. But after that if there is any discrimination in their progress or development then someone can blame us. The government works on the principles of the Constitution. And the government gets elected by people’s votes, the ones who give them the votes. Political representation is linked to this.
Do you think exodus is still a big issue in Muzaffarnagar and Kairana?
It’s still an issue, but the fact is those who have come are now living in peace. And they don’t have to leave.
So the situation has changed a lot?
Yes, it has changed. See, the biggest achievement of the BJP under Yogi Adityanath is that, in Uttar Pradesh, the politics had been influenced by crime and the administration had become politicised but after the BJP came to power, and after Yogi Adityanath became the chief minister, neither the politics is under a criminal influence, nor the administration is politicised. Both these things, which were detrimental to the progress of the people and state, we have been successful in removing. After the elevation of Narendra Modi to national politics, ‘parivaarvadi’ (dynasty politics), ‘jativaadi’ (casteism) aur ‘tushtikaranvaadi’ (appeasement) politics has ended and has been replaced by the politics of performance. The one who will perform, will be elected by the public.
I’ll tell you, after 15 years of rule of Samajwadi Party and Bahujan Samaj Party, UP was ranked 8th or 9th in the economic performance among the states. It (UP) has a 22 crore population with highest area and yet its economic performance was on that scale. If you just count the consumption of 22 crore people, your economy should be at number 1 position. In just five years, we were able to get Uttar Pradesh’s rank from the 8th-9th position to the number 2 in India. And within just two years, after the BJP gets elected, we will get UP to number 1 position.
This is a big achievement. UP’s GDP was Rs10,90,000 crore, now it’s Rs 21,31,000 crore. In just a period of five years, we have doubled it. The state was 14th in Ease of Doing Business, now we are at the number 2 position. Unemployment was at 17.3%, now it’s at 4.1%. And around 1.61 crore job opportunities have been created. It’s a big achievement.
Akhilesh Yadav says the BJP is avoiding the real issues. It talks of appeasement, when it should talk of price rise and unemployment.
Akhilesh ji should talk in terms of data, whether we are avoiding the real issues or if he is. The whole world has witnessed rise in prices after Covid-19, to an extent, it’s here (in India too). However, Modi ji has controlled it to a great extent. It’s a temporary phase. In the 7.5 years of Modi sarkaar, we have controlled inflation for six years. After Covid-19, the global market scenario has been affected. Whatever is imported has a high price, and that is reflected in domestic prices. It’s a temporary phase.
Another issue in these elections has come from Karnataka — the Hijab row. Do you think this issue of Hijab is justified for Muslim women and girls? Do you think religious rights should be given due importance in institutions, or can they override these?
It is my personal belief that people of all religions should accept the school’s dress code. And the issue is now in court, and the court is conducting its hearings on the matter, and whatever it decides should be followed by all. Ultimately, it has to be decided whether the country will function on the constitution or whims. My personal belief only remains until the court makes a decision, and once the court makes a decision, then I should accept it, and everyone should accept it. But I still personally believe that every student should function according to the dress code and uniform mandated by the school.
But do you think there a conspiracy at hand in this issue? The Campus Front of India is active in its involvement.
These people may have their active involvement, but I’ll just say that their intentions will not come to fruition. The people of India will accept the court’s judgment once it comes.
I would like to talk more on UP elections. When you campaigned for the party in the first three phases of polls, then you tried to influence Jayant Chaudhary a lot, saying that he was a good man in a wrong alliance. Would you stand by your statement even today?
Do you have any recording of this statement?
Have you not said this, then what did you say on this issue?
I’m not saying that I have not said it. The media should not pick things out of the wind. The elections have been packed, the BJP will come to power with full majority. I had only said he had ‘gone to the wrong place’.
Any possibility of a post-poll alliance with him?
I have not said anything on the matter. That question does not arise. Our party will come to power with a big margin, with full majority, then what is the need of a post-poll alliance? We already have a pre-poll alliance with two parties. And it is our tradition that even if we obtain majority we make our government under the NDA alliance. And we will not need anyone, we will win with full majority.
Some people who left you, three ministers and some MLAs, have tried to give another colour to the elections. They said these polls are not of 80 vs 20 but 85 vs 15; backward vs forward.
All the voters are important in the elections. But I admit that an image was being created that there is fragmentation in the backward communities. I have roamed the state in the past three phases, I can tell you that Modi ji’s Gareeb Kalyan schemes have changed the entire picture of the elections.
So are you saying that apart from law and order, this is a big issue in these elections?
Both these issues are big. The scale of our beneficiaries is of utmost importance to change these elections. And it’s very clearly visible, for 70 years in my home, no one increased their services, but Modiji gave us a card of Rs 5 lakh, through which, expenses worth Rs 5 lakh, our health bill, the Indian government is now paying. It’s a very big thing.
So you are saying these elections can rise beyond religion and caste?
It is already beyond such issues.
Then why is there so much talk of religion and caste? There is religion and caste in every speech.
There is a tradition that was started by the Congress, which the SP and BSP have cemented, and were successful on these fronts in the past too. But I think now, it’s slowly decreasing.
Taking a look at data, in the last elections, the BJP got more than 40% votes, and the SP and BSP had a vote share of about 22%. If you look at the trend now, Muslim votes seem to be polarised, and it seems that it will be consolidated with the Samajwadi party, and they have Yadavs too, and some other castes are joining them. There’s Rajbhars, and even some Jats may be influenced. If you look at this entire scenario, do you see the picture changing?
I feel every election is different and every elections’ dynamics are different too, counting is different too. However, to look at what you’re saying, look at the 2017 and 2019 elections, all three to four parties were together. What happened? We won 35 seats, and we were victorious with 287 in terms of assembly. Thirty-five were Lok Sabha seats, but if we put it in the structure of assembly, then we won in 287 assemblies. If you give the example of 2017, then there were only two parties; Congress and SP. In 2019, SP, BSP, Congress and RLD, all four had combined, we won in 287 assembly seats, and 35 in Lok Sabha. Politics does not work like this, one plus one is not always two, it can become 11 too.
But they say state elections are fought in a different way than the Centre’s, and that you cannot win by consolidating castes like this.
No. See in 2014, 2017, 2019 elections, Uttar Pradesh’s public had affirmed Narendra Modi’s leadership. And I am confident that even this year things will go the same way. The same way Modi ji has worked, even what Yogi ji has done, will become a big capital for us.
How do you view Mayawati in these elections? She is not being heard or seen too much and does not have a very high profile campaign.
The BSP has maintained its relevancy. I believe they will get votes. I don’t know how much it will convert into seats but it will get votes.
So the Jatav vote bank will stick by them. Is there any other group that will support them?
Muslims will also support them, in a lot of seats.
So, will you get any benefit from this because SP and BSP are against each other?
Benefit and loss do not happen like this, it is seat specific. It cannot be measured like this. But it is not correct to assume that BSP’s relevance has decreased.
Is there any possibility of a BJP alliance with Mayawati?
But there is no need of an alliance, we will come to power with full majority. Support is needed of all parties later to do good work, even SP’s is needed. Opposition’s creative support is always needed. But there is no need for alliance with anyone to form a government. The alliance we have is good, and we will form a government.
Do you think this is the fight for backward votes… for non-Jatav backward votes?
See, UP has three sections. First is poor; our schemes were aimed at the development of poor sections. Second is the middle-class people who are with the BJP because of law and order, and peaceful life. Third is those who are financially successful and are linked with us to develop the state industrially and otherwise. We have waived loans of about 86 lakh farmers worth Rs 35,000 crore. We have purchased almost 435 lakh metric tonne fertiliser and Rs 80,000 crore has been directly transferred to farmers for that. Around 2.84 crore farmers have been benefitted under the Pradhan Mantri Kisan Samman Nidhi, with Rs 6,000 transferred to them every year; Rs 32,500 crore have been transferred till now. Under the Pradhan Mantri Kisan Fasal Bima Yojana, 25,60,000 farmers have been compensated for Rs 2,200 crore till now. Rs 4.72 lakh has been transferred on a short-term basis for every crop. Almost two crore farmers have received the Kisan credit card. And what has been the change due to this – UP has become number 1 in sugarcane, sugar, wheat, potato, green peas, mango, amla and milk.
Now Akhilesh ji is saying we are deviating from the real issues we are not. Why was not the state number 1 in sugarcane, milk, wheat production? Because you did not perform. And we helped in farmers’ development and also compensated farmers for their work.
Is there no anger in farmer due to recent agitation?
There was an attempt to create a perception but they were not successful.
There is a big attempt to influence the Brahmin vote bank, especially by Akhilesh Yadav. He has said he will also celebrate Parshuram Jayanti, what do you have to say about this?
I would call this deviation from issues. To indulge is caste politics is to deviate, right? We are talking of the poor, of rural voters, of urban voters, of middle-class voters. We are not talking of caste.
How important do you think is the Owaisi factor in this election? He created a dent (in Muslim vote bank) in the Bihar election… There was firing at his cavalcade too!
Owaisi ji travels across the country. He mainly addresses the minority and he gets votes.
He got in Bihar, but not in West Bengal…
It is not possible in every election, but he is the centre of attraction among a section of youth…
His entourage was attacked…
Yes.
Even though your law and order situation there is good…
An isolated incident can’t be linked to the law and order situation. It becomes a law and order situation if no action is taken after the attack on Owaisi. The Bharatiya Janata Party-led government arrested two accused within two hours. We held a security assessment meeting within three hours. Within eight hours, we took a call and offered him Z security. He refused, which is another thing, but we left no stone unturned.
Yogi Adityanath says Owaisi should be careful about statements like ‘How long will Modi and Yogi remain in power? Once they retire, it will be on us…’
It is an individual opinion, but I think every person should have security. And we offered him Z security.
You think Muslim youth are attracted to Owaisi in UP?
Of course, he is a centre of attraction among Muslim youth.
So you think he can eat into the Muslim vote share?
We will know that only after the ballot boxes are opened.
How do you see Congress in this election? Priyanka Gandhi spoke about reservation for women. The party started a campaign ‘Ladki hoon, lad sakti hoon’. Their vote share was 6%?
An election took place in recent past in a major state like West Bengal. They won zero seats.
Are you saying they will win zero seats in UP?
I am not saying. This just indicates their future.
Punjab CM from Congress Charanjit Singh Channi recently said, in the presence of Priyanka Gandhi, he would not allow any ‘Bhaiyya’ to form a government in the state. What is your comment on this?
This is the style of the Congress party. They give different statements in different places. I don’t think this statement is okay for a healthy society. India is a nation. Whoever wants to go to Gujarat, UP or Punjab to earn their livelihood or career can go. I don’t support this kind of statement or politics for votes. Priyanka Gandhi was expressing her approval on this statement on the stage. In two days, in UP, she said the party is fighting for the pride of UP. I have never seen such a contradiction within two days.
You often mention Balakot, saying PM Modi fought the enemy fiercely. But Rahul Gandhi has said Pakistan and China have come together because of the government.
Rahul Gandhi doesn’t know the history of this country. He doesn’t know what happened in 1962 and whose mistake it was. The Narendra Modi government has given a strong reply to every challenge posed by China, be it Galwan or Uri. The Modi government has protected the borders and sovereignty of the country. I don’t think this kind of statements about neighbouring countries should be made by any national leader. I want to ask him that ‘you are saying all this in Parliament, but you break all protocols to meet a Chinese delegation. What did you discuss with them?’ Such statements show there is a dearth of serious politicians.
You praise Yogi Adityanath. He is the chief minister of Uttar Pradesh and the face of your party in UP. If you win with majority, will he be the CM?
Of course, we have fought the elections under his leadership, so he will be the CM.
If you get a majority?
There is no question of majority, we will win with a huge majority. He is the face no matter what.
I want to shift the focus away from UP and want to ask questions about CAA…
…Before that, let me elaborate on the education system in UP. The state has a majority of youth. The education system had become miserable. After coming to power, the BJP government opened 10 international universities, 51 new colleges and new buildings for 80 colleges. First, there were 12 medical colleges, now there are 40. First, there were 1,900 medical seats, which are now up to 4,200. We have opened 28 engineering colleges, 26 polytechnic colleges, 751 Kasturba Vidyalaya for girls. We have brought about a change in perspective on education, be it medical, engineering, professional or traditional courses. The whole atmosphere related to education has changed. Youngsters are hopeful now because of this. The youth are seeing, say something like Ken-Betwa, people have been hearing about it for years, but the Modi government allotted Rs 44,000 crore. They have seen infrastructural changes. UP got five expressways, eight international airports, taking the total to 12, and widening or strengthening of 70,000 km of roadways. At least 7,000 km of roads in rural areas have been fixed.
Akhilesh Yadav says the expressways were being made in their tenure, the BJP is taking credit for it.
Ask him to show the map of any of the expressway, barring one. We are also planning to connect all roads. The change in infrastructure and education have made youngsters hopeful and confident. The youth of UP want to bring about a change and if they take part in the growth, it will be a blessing for the entire country.
Punjab has voted. What do you have to say about the fight the BJP put up with Captain Amarinder Singh and Sukhdev Singh Dhindsa?
Except for fortunetellers, nobody can predict what will happen in Punjab. It was a different type of election. We are positive that we put forth a strong challenge.
You may have to bear the brunt of farmers’ agitation. Anyway, you have never fought on many seats there because of Akali Dal.
I held nine rallies in Punjab. Security is also a major issue there. It is a border state. The breach of PM Modi’s security, where he was stopped from addressing a rally, was also a major issue. We will get success there, the extent we will know once the results are out.
Surveys are predicting AAP and Congress are ahead.
I still maintain no survey can predict the poll result in Punjab.
What will happen if there is a hung assembly?
It depends on numbers. There can be a coalition government of two-three parties, like there have been in this country.
CM Channi recently wrote to a letter you, to which you replied a couple of days ago. Does your government think there any link between the separatists and the AAP or Arvind Kejriwal?
Forget about Aam Aadmi Party or Arvind Kejriwal, any party’s link to a separatist or terrorist group and its use for political gain in elections is a serious issue. No government will take it lightly, nor can we. We will investigate it.
Do you think such a thing was happening… since you replied to the letter?
If the chief minister of an elected government writes to you, you can’t take it lightly. We will know the facts only after the investigation.
Is it a tough fight in Uttarakhand? Congress is saying they will form a government there.
We will definitely form a government in Uttarakhand. Dhami ji (Pushkar Dhami) has brought about tremendous growth in a very small span of time. In the past five years, Char Dham and mega electricity projects have been taken up. The state government has worked for the poor.
The state saw three CMs in five years. Some major leaders defected to the Congress. Will it have an impact?
Such things do have an impact. But a sizeable positive vote bank has been created there.
Are you sure you will win with a clear majority?
Yes, we are confident of a clear majority.
How do you see the Goa elections?
In Goa, our performance has been good. We will improve our numbers from the last time.
Last time, you formed a government despite low numbers.
The numbers were not so low. They will improve this time. We will form a government in Goa. …In Manipur, too, our leaders are fighting well. In five years, the state didn’t see a single blockade, terrorist activity, too, is under control. For the first time, those from the hilly areas are saying if there is any government that has brought about development it is the BJP. The Biren Singh government has brought about development. People from the hilly region will support us.
When will the Citizenship (Amendment) Act be implemented?
As long as we are not free from Covid, this can’t be a priority. Since CAA was passed, three Covid waves have hit us in the past two years. Thankfully, things are getting better, the third wave is receding. The decision is linked to the Covid situation. But there is no question of going back on it. That question simply does not arise.
This Uttarakhand election saw the issue of Uniform Civil Code crop up. Will your government take it forward?
The Uttarakhand CM has included it in his manifesto for the next term. He held a press conference to announce it. I believe, it will come into effect in Uttarakhand once our government comes to power.
Will it be implemented in the rest of India?
It needs comprehensive discussions. We will discuss it with all stakeholders.
But is this a start?
Yes.
When can the people of Kashmir expect elections?
The delimitation exercise is about to get over. After this, whatever will be the reasonable timeframe – about six-eight months – the elections will be held. There should be no confusion about that.
Imran Khan recently said India and Pakistan should resolve their issues together, especially Kashmir.
I am very clear about this – Kashmir is an integral part of India. There is no point of discussion here. It is a part of India, this is the position taken by all governments in our Parliament. This is also the position of our country.
Is the level of discourse going down in the elections across political parties? Is this good for democracy?
Not really… When there is a tough fight, such utterances happen. But everybody should exercise constraint.
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